Received: from fmgmt.mgmt.utoronto.ca (fmgmt.mgmt.utoronto.ca [128.100.43.253]) by mail2.texas.net (8.8.8/2.4) with ESMTP id PAA21510 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 15:19:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by fmgmt.mgmt.utoronto.ca (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) id QAA00492 for emweb-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 16:16:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fmgmt.mgmt.utoronto.ca: majordom set sender to owner-emweb@mgmt.utoronto.ca using -f From: LouisFors Message-ID: <4cb395e8.3561e867@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:15:33 EDT To: emweb@fmgmt.mgmt.utoronto.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Member Submission from Saad Shaikh Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-emweb@mgmt.utoronto.ca Precedence: list Reply-To: emweb@mgmt.utoronto.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 8abefddd8be0c978cf5b68b560c9ac43 Christoper wrote with respect to poem # 260: > I read the poem as, putting it very crudely, a sort of aid to self > improvement. Each of the two stanzas offers three linked but separate images > (two concrete and one abstract in both cases). In stanza one, the context > seems to be, more or less, the faith militant with each hoped-for > improvement introduced by 'till': 'stouter', 'less afraid', 'helped'. In > stanza two, the context seems to be martyrdom, with images of > transcendence: 'faith' ... 'shone above the fagot' and the 'River could not > drown' the 'Hymn', with 'renown' supplanting 'record'. I read 'the fagot' as > the fuel around the stake with 'shone' having resonance for both sides of > the comparison. Personally, I can't make any other reading of 'fagot' quite > cohere. > > A couple of things intrigue me. 'As if a Kingdom - cared!' reminds me of the > 'eclipse' worshipped by ED's family and also of ED's acerbic > characterisation of God as one who says no and then doesn't > answer. The river image tempts me to think of witches - especially when it > is followed by 'Celestial Women'. > > What do others think? > > Christopher Walker The poem: Read -- Sweet -- how others -- strove-- Till we -- are stouter -- What they -- renounced -- Till we -- are less afraid -- How many times they -- bore the faithful witness -- Till we - are helped -- As if a Kingdom -- cared! Read then -- of faith -- That shone above the fagot -- Clear strains of Hymn The River could not drown -- Brave name of Men -- And Celestial Women -- Passed out -- of Record Into -- Renown! I think Saad Shaikh has taken Webster's second definition of fagot ("A person hired to appear at musters in a company not full and hide the deficiency.") I tried that meaning and it can make certain sense. I agree with Christopher, however, that "a bundle of sticks" is more appropriately, particularly if it is lighted. (Webster makes no mention of lighting the bundle.) I read the first stanza as a quite bitter comment by the speaker on the Pilgrim tradition of giving all to help not only themsleves but all others. And the speaker says, "as if God cared." This agrees with Christopher's reading, although I think the speaker is angrier than Chrisopher suggests. I see the second stanza also as dealing with martyrdom. I have gone back to the first stanza, however, and wondered about "sweet" in the first line. It might mean "listen to me, my sweet," in which event it could be a very personal statement about a close relationship, which the stanch New Englanders and their ways could not accept. "So, how about martyrdom and what follows, dear friend?" This may be a stretch, but it's a possibility. I'm even tempted to think that ED was thinking about "passing out of record into reknown" with her co-author, as MNS thought of Susan. But, hey, I may be well round the bend here. Louis Forsdale >